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Random quote: "YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FIND YOUR WHOLENESS . . . YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FIND YOUR PEACE . . . YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FIND YOUR UTTER SAFETY . . . UNTIL YOU'RE WILLING TO YIELD TO THE FATHER'S WILL . . . CONSTANTLY." ~~ Raj
- (Added by: amena)


doug........ repost from way down below
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Posted 2003-03-11 6:30 PM (#4820 - in reply to #4788)
Subject: here we go Amena


Okay Amena, first thing I disagree with none of the excellent post you offered. Thank you.

now, as to the differences we see. It seems (and I stress, seems) to me, that Raj is saying a firm Yes or No is required.......but to what question...... I attempted to put a question to him about the current topic, not about world war 2, or Bosnia, or anything past....but about the current topic, that asked him to be specific to us. It did not get asked, and I understand there are difficulties, but difficulties are to be overcome.

So where are we left...... Hmmm..... a firm Yes or No...... lets start with

1) "should Sadaam Hussein remain as head of the Iraqi people"......NO.

2) "Should The use of armed force, in action against the greater people be the use that best embodies Christ in the removal of Sadaam Husseins power and position, at this exact time. My answer here NO.......... why?

Because no where in any talk that I have yet listened too, have I heard Raj say that killing another is okay....except in exceptional circumstances and in each case he has related a scenario of one on one conflict, not a broader issue.

I liken this to the removal of a cancer tumour, that he and others have used...... when  surgeon needs to remove a cancer he removes the tumour and surrounding tissue with a finesse that addresses the cancer, he does not chop off the limb, and say oh it is okay. He then applies his skills to healing the incisions as best he can.

Now one might say that a war of 3000 bombs against civilian targets is surgical..... I don't agree. that does not make my view right or wrong. But I put this to you. In years gone past the US, the UK, and indeed my own place of residence, Australia, has demonstrated its phenomenal ability to send in "surgical" units, usually composed of such troops as SAS, Seals, Specialist Marines etc, who remove their target with little or no collateral damage. Guatemala, Columbia, Afghanistan, The Falklands, and many more we are not aware of, come to mind. However the means is there. The removal of Sadaam Hussein could be achieved and he could then be brought to arraignment before international tribunal. It is still not a great answer but it is one. I am sure that some will scoff at me, citing the illusive nature of SH, the doubles, and the security..... However if you have any doubt about the ability I suggest you check it out.

3) To embody Christ in such a way as to not raise the fear in our fellow brothers requires something different. Be honest to yourself now, for a moment. Let us assume that you are a little girl, who knows little of the world, and yet you are indoctrinated in the rhetoric of Islam, and hatred of the west. You witness the death of you mother, and the crippling of your father and brothers....... by a force you cannot understand. Are you Amena, honestly telling me, that you think, you as that little girl, would not have a hate so strong in your heart, that you would not grow to perpetuate that hate? Witness the many children using guns in Palestine, the ones shown on TV, toting weapons of death, and shouting religious and politically indoctrinated slogans, .....witness the unforgettable pictures of the woman ululating, in almost orgasmic ecstasy, in the streets immediately after the fall of the twin towers.......witness the 800 yr old war in Ireland, and the generations since Michael Collins of Dublin managed to form the first free Irish republic, in 1922, that have perpetuated the war against England...... generations of northern Irish children in the Falls area of Londonderry and in areas of Belfast, that grew up with an armoulite rifle in their beds, and that still use them today as young men. The Irish problem is not over yet, for England. Interestingly enough one of the worlds most revered war time leaders, Sir Winston Churchill was the man who issued the orders that led to the massacre in an Irish football match, of women, children and men...indiscriminately. Now tell me honestly Amena........is the issue over once the war has been won?

what we're talking about here is making a distinction between each one's faulty definitions of what is of value and what is not........... and one's true definitions of what is of value and what is not. we are talking of something within each individual. you must ask whether the thought you are entertaining is of value or not............ whether it is a worthy thought or not..............  whether is represents the truth or not............. whether it embodies what God is being or not............ so that you may choose not to embody that thought........... so that you choose not to embrace it ............ and are open to discover what is true...... from the Father."  at this stage in our awakening we must judge (with Gods' help) what is of value......... and of value for the Sonship as a whole.

Again I ask......has the Father ever embodied war? Where are the teachings in the course that embodies death of many as an excuse for war? Where in the course are the words that we must "do" anything out there, in order to heal "in here". Where in the course does it say, that in not condoning the actions of another, its okay to trample the innocent?

We must Judge ....with Gods help what is of value.............. but yet we trumpet old methods, old ideas, old ways of triumphing over another as the only solution possible.

I believe Raj is saying WAKE UP RIGHT NOW and see another way.......a firm NO to sadaam Hussein is not the same thing as a reluctant YES to the killing of another being.

Ammi keeps calling for what these ideas are....... I am frustrated by the fact that I cannot enunciate anything other than its not war..... and in that I accept the judgment that I am maybe not helping...... but I am certain that wholesale war is not the answer.

In the Mp3 you mentioned, it talks about killing "the man" the choices were given as

1) disabling the man by using the sharpshooter

2) Killing the man, by using someone else with a gun

3) if the police had an empath....etc... then you would use that man.

To bring the least amount of harm possible........ is there anywhere in that, where Raj accepts collateral loss of life or harm............. NOPE!

And so I come back again, full circle....... Remove Sadaam Hussein.....do not bring harm to innocent Iraqi people.

If the right question was asked at the meeting perhaps we would get the right answer.......is there anyone that is willing to ask that question....... it could be decided upon by this board before Thursday.

Thanks Amena...... I am not sure if this is an impasse or not..... but am willing to keep going if you feel it worthwhile.

In Peace
Douglas



Edited by Dougoz 2003-03-11 6:31 PM
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