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Random quote: "either your teaching what causes sudden shifts of perception to occur... healing..... or you are doing what inhibits sudden shifts of perception. you are doing one or the other.... own it. you are teaching one or the other... fully........with commitment.. aggressively. you are either teaching that which unifies.,.. or that which divides...... and you are teaching it with the power of the Christ that you are." ~ Raj.
- (Added by: amena)

Tip of the iceberg
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   General Discussion -> The Gathering Place (TGP)Message format
Posted 2003-02-24 11:41 AM (#3279 - in reply to #3246)
Subject: RE: Tip of the iceberg

Originally written by James on 2003-02-24 12:05 AM

What I offered was information "for your consideration". Now that means to me you can read it or not, agree with it or not. I did not elicit agreement with my assessment of it, for I offered none. If it stimulated anyone to be curious about what it said, and do their own research for more evidence, fine. If not, fine.

Wow james..... this is quite curious.  It seems you are posting other people's words to give yourself deniability.  I'm wondering why you are posting articles that you don't necessarily agree with and have no commentary to accompany it? And here now you right a whole response without clarifying your assessment.  Why post something if you don't care whether it is read or  not, or agreed with or not, or whether it is stimulating or not?  What's the point?  Where is your commitment?

Raj tells you to get off the fence....... and you are straddling one big time.  Where do you stand?  You don't seem to be standing at all..... rather doing a lot of bobbing and weaving.

Please write in your own voice..... and please write things you can stand behind with the conviction of your entire being. THAT is getting off the fence.  I much more appreciate THIS posting, because at least you are speaking in your own voice..... albeit in an indirect and dancing sort of way.

What we must remember...... in the scope of this whole geo-political discussion...... is that the whole thing is about mind..... and mind training.  Training the mind you call yours..... and training the mind i call mine. This is why you should not be offended with what i have said above...... for a trained mind is not on the fence.... it reveals itself..... it KNOWS where it stands.  And it stands behind what it shares.

I do better like what you have offered here..... for it allows me to wrap up the geo-political allegory, and move the focus back to mind training.  And you have packaged well some of carter's fallacies for me to address.  I admire jimmy carter very much..... but the country was weak and suffered during his presidency.  The Course says that good intentions are not enough.

Propaganda? I have no idea what you mean by that word.

I was speaking of the loaded language and the heavy idealogical bent of the article which you are now attempting to divorce yourself from.  By posting it here, you were certainly spreading ideas..... even if you deny attachment to those ideas.

"Evil monster"...your word, not mine.

I know...... but now you are playing both sides of the fence again.  You didn't offer any of your words with the article..... so i am left only with my words in impression of what the article said.  So of course "evil monster" is my word.... you designed this exchange so that only my words are in play.  Your words weren't offered, and you don't stand behind the article you shared. That leaves only my words in the exchange.

I do not hold GWB in that dark. I hold him, as a brother, in the light.

I don't know what that means.  What does it mean that you hold him as a brother in the light?  How do you hold him as a brother in the light when sharing propaganda articles that paint him as an evil monster? This is confusing. Your actions seem to contradict your words.  Did you think the article was a "hold him in the light" kind of article?

I thought it held him as a run-away freight train loaded with dynamite.

I do not agree with the direction he is taking this country. I am called, in my peace, to say a very solid "NO" to an agenda that I see as "unintelligent, unloving, unprincipled, and unkind"....

I do not like the direction he is taking the country either..... i do not like how the country has changed in his two short years. Now..... it appears that you are weaving a bit.  Was posting the article a way of saying a very solid "NO" to an agenda?  If so..... why do you then divorce yourself from the article?  Solid is solid..... not mushy.

Remember..... this discussion is about mind and mind training.

A "helpless dupe....a world hero...standing strong against oppression...."

Perhaps you ought to run a check on your imagination. Your words, not mine...nor, I might add, are such absurdities found in the material I offered this forum.

What?  You offered that article with the loaded language. It is disigenuous to back away from what you are sharing. I was responding to the absurdities found in the material you offered.

Okay.... let's get into the carter fallacy

ammi: What do we do to help the iraqi people? 

james: Keeping a strong and bigger inspections team working to discover and destroy the weapons...that was effective for a few years after the Gulf War.

Yes, the inspection teams were effective for a few years...... until saddam got tired of them..... and kicked them out of the country. Remember?  The ONLY reason there are inspectors in iraq today..... is because the united states started massing troops in kuwait.  Without the troops..... the inspections cease. It seems important for you to at least acknowledge this.

Do not forget that we have already tried inspections..... and they did not work.  Inspections will never work as long as saddam is uncooperative.... and he will again evict them when the threat of force subsides. You can only point to the inspection, because of the threat of war.

Then to address the human rights issue of the Iraqi people. Greater and greater pressure, united and strong, globally, can be brought to bear on Saddam if the UN can act in strong accord.

You have said nothing here...... The UN has been united in pressuring saddam for 12 years now.  Remember the economic sanctions which are still in place?  This is how the UN applies pressure.  However, these economic sanctions have not swayed saddam..... and they do nothing to ease the suffering of the iraqi people.  The economic sanctions increase the suffering of the iraqi people.  I asked what to do to help the iraqi people...... your reply offers them more help..... only continued suffering.

Certainly, with a large and effective inspection team present, SH's treatment of his people can be monitored more closely from this point on.  At this point that is all I can suggest.

The inspection teams leave as soon as the threat of war subsides.  Again this is no solution.  Also, the mandate of the weapons inspectors does not allow them to monitor or concern themselves with the treatment of his people.

I hold the Iraqi people in the light and love of Christ, as I do "all my relations" everywhere.

I have no idea what that means. What would you do to HELP the iraqi people.... and ease their suffering?  Thinking good thoughts while working to keep their oppressor in power seems conflicted.

This carter plan is really no plan...... it is "peace at all costs"...... it has nothing new to offer..... and only maintains the status quo..... and it is the status quo which is causing suffering to the iraqi people.  Remember, nothing changes without change. This is a discussion of mind and mind-training.  There is a mechanism for change..... but you must use the means..... you must be willing to use the means.  Change is not repackaging and reusing the same old things that have been ineffective thus far.

Raj said that sometimes war is necessary.

You cannot say you wish to help the iraqi people, and then reject the means that will do so.  Good intentions are not enough.

Peace forever,

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